Shades After 019
Not to say asexual people don’t have kids, it’s just less likely to happen by accident!
I don’t know about other people, but I remember what it was like for me when I realised ‘holy shit I DON’T have to have kids and my life can still be meaningful.’ Hollywood has a lot to answer for, but the assumption that happily ever after has to involve romance and children is a big one.
So much this… a person doesn’t have to reproduce to have a fulfilling life. I think the reason so many artists are gay is that the reproductive urge has been diverted into a creative urge to make beauty rather than crotch-droppings. And I know the arguements that “oh gosh, if we didn’t breed our race would die out!” I haven’t noticed there being a *lack* of children in the world (at least all the children languishing in fostercare or orphanages would certainly argue otherwise), and if we didn’t have people creating art we would still be eating raw meat, wearing uncured hides and living in dirty caves. All that makes life worth living is art; cooking, clothing, music, and all other forms of art are what truly separate us from animals. Animals care for each other, animals make tools, but no animal makes art but us.
Sorry to interupt you here, but elephants makes art and great art indeed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxO7MPUKH8
#animal abuse tw, mentions in comment and more graphic descriptions and sometimes pictures in the articles linked, so please be aware.
Many groups and individuals have investigated this process, and the elephants are guided by the trainers (“mahouts”) by tugging on the left ear in a similar fashion to using reins on a horse. There is further knowledge that the elephants are abused in the process of training the elephants to follow orders:
The training process is called the ‘phajaan’ or ‘crush’ and is centuries old and is used throughout Asia today. It involves taking a 3-year-old baby from its mother’s side and roping it into a small bamboo cage in which it cannot move except to breathe. Of course the elephant fights for its freedom and is beaten, poked with sharp bamboo, starved, dehydrated, and sleep-deprived until it submits to its captors’ demands. The process may take a week, depending on how long it takes to ‘crush’ the elephant’s spirit. About 50% of the babies die from the process and the survivors are left with physical and emotional scars for the rest of their lives,”
(http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp).
Circuses in America often use bullhooks (“ankus”), whips, and electricity to train their elephants, along with ignoring the (frequent) illness and injuries experienced by them.
Though I can’t find very much on European circuses, the UK seems to be in better standing, with only two circuses licensed by the government, which don’t feature elephants at all and give the animals they do have areas to graze while stopped. The lack of circuses is due to a loss of public interest after many violations became public, including the death of the last circus elephant in 2011. A large problem I see is the dismissive attitude of English reporters on claims of animal rights violations. They generally seem to act as though the entire idea is humorous, which can only lead to actual issues being overlooked.
Here are a few sources on painting elephants in Thailand:
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/weblog.php?p=2168&more=1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/georja-umano/elephants-today-have-no-place-to-hide_b_4934926.html
Here are some focusing on the treatment of elephants by Ringling Bros:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/10/ringling-bros-elephant-abuse
https://awionline.org/cases/protection-asian-elephants
Finally, some sources from the UK:
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/animal-circuses-cruel-entertainment-or-a-dying-art-1-6862167
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/04/boozy-zoo-parties-late-openings-london-zoo (#ableist language tw and #alcohol mention tw for this one)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/wild-animals-forced-perform-british-4385184
Let me rephrase that statement- No animal In The Wild has Spontaneously made art, those elephants “painting” have been trained to do so and what to paint, it’s just a tourist trap and abuse of sensitive and intelligent creatures. http://www.earsasia.org/why_we_help/Pages/elephant_painting.html
So, not to be “that guy” who posts on a two year old comment thread, but…
Google image search “bowerbird bower”. Animals can and do make art. Art is not what makes humans unique. Our brains and our ability to problem solve and invent is what sets us apart.
Yup! To add some examples: Some spiderwebs, too. And, birds sing, as well as dance. There was a recent National Geographic article about birds using synthetic bits in their nests, and how they pick certain colours to contrast with their plumage and building location.
I laughed too hard at the phrase “crotch droppings”
Heh, it’s something I heard online and have taken the phrase as my own. A counter to all those people who insist children are “miracles”. A miracle is someone nearly being killed and coming up without a scratch, or someone inventing something that has never been done before. Babies have been done approximately 7 billion times so far with no signs of of slowing down- that’s not a miracle (it’s like flicking on a light switch and declaring it a miracle).
(human) babies have been done (the ones who survive, anyway) 7 billion + times but the number of babies who have happened in human history is much greater than that, and going back before the last 7,000 years or so to our unrecorded ancestors and the various animals we’re descended from and blah…
A lot of babies have been happening in the 1.2 billion years (maybe) since sexual reproduction was invented, and I’m not sure how you fit the reproduction of ace microorganisms into “babies” but yeah.
Because a lot can go wrong in trying to reproduce? I mean, I don’t care if you want to reproduce or not, but speaking as a mom who nearly lost her child prematurely, yeah, he’s my little miracle. And that’s not even going into how hard it can be for some couples to have kids.
I think you completely mis-read everything and took it all much too personally. Generally speaking, life is in no way a “miracle.” Like the above folks said, it’s been done time and time again, complications and all. To you, personally, your kid’s a miracle, and that’s great, but from a medical standpoint, that stuff happens a LOT and babies live, so to those of us who don’t have any interest in having kids (sorry if that offends you?) it’s not exactly something we’d consider a “big deal.”
Also consider that you’re coming at us – the weirdo freaks who “hate” children – from the “normal” side of the realm. For someone who doesn’t care whether others want kids or not, you sure do seem to care.
It seems to me that Kheldarson reaction isn’t at all aggressive or anything like that toward people who don’t want kids. She’s just saying that for some people, a baby CAN be considered as a miracle… My sister almost lost her baby prematurely too, my other sister had great “chances” (sorry I forgot the word in the english idiom) to be sterile because of her anorexia so for her too, being able to get child was quite a miracle…
Some people use other terms, but well, people who don’t want child can also respect people who do and struggle to have children. There is no-one coming at anyone, just people expressing their different point of view.
Kheldarson doesn’t seem to me to “care about the fact that some people don’t cant children”, I think she was caring about the fact that for some people, having children can be seen as “a miracle”.
I don’t think there is any judgement in her post about people who don’t want children.
Both of the posters previous to my post were indicating a disparagement on the idea of kids being a miracle (see th.e lightbulb comparison). I presented a case as to why some view them that way. Yes, collectively, the process may not be miraculous, but families aren’t a collective ideal; they’re personal. Hence to say we’re countering an idea that some hold seems wrong when it’s based, potentially, on personal experience.
And, no, DemonEthan, I don’t care if you want kids or not. I have friends who can’t have kids for medical reasons, won’t have kids for personal reasons, and I was ambivalent myself until I got pregnant and had my own. I really don’t care what others personally decide to do in terms of their family building.
Yeah, I’m pretty sick of the way people react when I say I don’t want kids. My life circumstances and views may change and maybe I’ll want kids someday, but from where I’m currently standing I have no desire to have kids. I’m tired of people judging this decision, saying that life cannot be meaningful without children. I mean really, who has the right to say that my life isn’t meaningful right now, right at this very moment? People can judge my lifestyle however they want to, but the fact is that I believe my life is a good one. I don’t need to have a significant other to have a good life, and I don’t need children for that either. I make myself happy, my happiness isn’t dependent on others. I’m proud of that, I’m not going to apologize for that.
This! I relate and agree to all the points you make :)
THIS. I’m very lucky in that my family completely respect my decision not to have kids (my mum gets really cross with people who ask her “But don’t you want grandkids?”, and has been known to snap at them “THAT’S NOT UP TO ME!”). Annoyingly, though, the people who DON’T respect said decision include medical professionals, who have refused to carry out ops that would help my gynae issues “because I might change my mind about not having kids”.
I’m nearly 30. And, funnily enough, if I went up to them and asked for help GETTING pregnant, I very much doubt they’d say “Nope, not gonna help you. You might change your mind about having kids” – even though that’s just as much of a permanent decision!
So much this. I had a major uterine issue when I was 25 and almost bleeding to death from it (no lie there, it was horrible), and hysterectomy was on the table – until the doctor found out how young I was. Despite not wanting children since I was 10, that was apparently ‘not enough’. Wouldn’t even perform the surgery he did until he talked with both my mother -and- my husband about the procedure. 32, and I still don’t want kids. It’s ridiculous that people expect you to naturally want to have children: not everyone wants them, and for a variety of different reasons.
It’s so fucking sexist, like doctors have to speak to your parents and husband to make a decision? Oh yeah, that’s right, you’re just a woman so you can’t take decisions on your own… -__- I wish people could be the ones to decide what they want for themselves, for their body… instead of being patronized by Medical institution…
I totally understand where you guys are coming from. The reason doctors say thosethings is because so many people change their minds and sue their doctors later. If there were a better legal system in place protecting physicians from regretful non-mothers, we’d be a *lot* more willing to perform operations that sterilize women. And as far as asking the husband and mother: I think that if vasectomy were more permanent (and sperm donation were harder), wifes and parents would be consulted before those too. Maybe I’m naive and blind to some of the sexism in our world, but most ob/gyns I’ve worked with have tremendous tespect for the women they treat. (Source: I’m in my final year of med school in the USA and have worked directly under ob/gyns facing these issues.)
Having the right to dispose of our own bodies (either male or female) should mean that yeah, it’s our responsability, so people should take their responsabilities and not sue doctors if they’re not assuming their own decisions.
Mutual conscent contracts and other kind of “i do not held my doctor/surgeon responsible for any regrets I could have regarding the decision itself to have the surgery” shouldn’t be that hard to do :/
A psychological appointment before, to make sure the patient is aware of the permanency of such decision and all could cover that. It’s unbelievable when someone is sure of what s-he wants to do with his/her body, never wanted to bear kid (I mean, being pregnant, which is totally different of educate one), is ok with the idea of being unable to have some etc that doctors keep forbid it…
What’s different between someone who never wanted to have kid biologically, who happens to be a trans guy and well, get an hysterectomy and someone who doesn’t identify as trans but has the exact same knowledge and certainty to want not to get pregnant ?!
When I was younger, I didn’t identify as male, as it was quite impossible in my mind to be a guy when you’re born female, but I was clear about not willing to bear a child in my body. Have children yeah, but not bear it. And it wasn’t the child thought “Ugh it’s disgusting blabla”. It was just something I knew deeply in myself.
I don’t understand how it’s different. If people have regrets later, it’s not their doctor’s fault, it’s only theirs, and they have to live with it… Responsability is the price of liberty..
This. I cannot agree with all of this. Children and a significant other are not the end goal for a lot of people. There is nothing wrong with this. After all, a lot of the population that seem to have children, at least from my experience, aren’t happy being parents. I worry that they were victims of these sorts of beliefs that children are so important in their lives that when they have them, they’re unfulfilled by it.
Don’t get me wrong some people are happier being parents (and there’s also nothing wrong with that either) but this idea that we have to? Blegh. No thank you.
*I can agree with all of this
I apparently need coffee as well.
Hahah, coffee, that may be something that I require to have a happy and meaningful life. :P Hahaha…
I think coworkers were more surprised that I have no interest in having kids. I’ve been uninterested in kids for my whole life. I really had no interest in dolls, I didn’t like babysitting and raised hell anytime my parents forced me to babysit their friends kids when I was a teen. And anytime getting married and kids topic was brought up I was adamantly opposed. So my parents didn’t bat an eye when I came out. The war had already been waged for years in small battles. I think dad was more relived I wasn’t a lesbian. (Though I’m pretty much aromantic I’m bi when I do get attached to someone, though I have a bad habit of getting squishes over gay men, sigh. At least I don’t get devastated when those squished go unrequited)
Sorry to hear about your squishes, may you have better luck in future. If you’re interested, keep looking and I hope success comes your way!
I think why I tend to go for the gay guys is I don’t get the feeling that their main interest in me is getting in my pants, and *sigh* they do tend to be sweet, intellectual, and cute.
I’ve always been a bit confused about the child thing. Like, there will definitely be children in my life (probably adopted or fostered, considering my biological status), but that’s my own personal choice. On a similar level, I want to have a conversation with any/all long term partner(s) I end up with to see how that might work with them. But being upset at someone because they don’t want children? Needing your kids to carry on your line? Why is that so important to people? It’s not your life, and it’s not your choice, so leave well enough alone.
If what you want is to know you’ll be remembered and that you’ve impacted the world, go out and do it yourself. Don’t put it on your children or those around you to do it for you.
Anwar, just gotta fight it. My mom is still convinced I’m having kids some day, and I’ve been against it since I was but a wee lass.
People try and tell me you need to have them to “fulfill your life” and that I should “just try it”. Uhm, ‘scuse me, but how do I “just try” HAVING KIDS?! Like, if that doesn’t work out, I can’t put it down and say “uh-uh, not interested.” That’s a commitment. I mean, I could. But that would be horrible. Kids aren’t a game. They aren’t a novelty. They aren’t something people should be popping out left and right. They’re expensive, need a lot of care, love and attention, and need about 20 years of your life. And I want to travel by time I’m 30. A child-free life, for someone like me, sounds blissful. Children just ain’t my cup of tea, and I’m tired of people trying to force the cup of tea down my throat and getting exasperated when I just wont take it.
“Hollywood has a lot to answer for, but the assumption that happily ever after has to involve romance and children is a big one.”
+1 from me, too, mate!
Just as bad for me personally. Not am I only expected to have children but MALE children….This originally started with my Grandmother who send my mom off to the hospital to have me, with the instructions not to “bring home any piss-tails (girls)”. My parents behaved the same with me to their eternal disappointment as I “only have daughters” and therefore must have a “she-cock”.
My kids and my brothers daughter get treated as second class compared to my brothers son who regularly gets away with murder figuratively speaking.
That’s horrible. Sure this started with your grandmother? she must have gotten the idea somewhere, after all. Must have been living in a horribly misogynist environment for some time to have internalized that much misogyny.
Ugh, my mother is still holding out hope. If she’s lucky she’ll get adopted grand kids.
Mine too. Luckily she’s a pet lover so I tell her that she’ll get grand-puppies.
On the other hand, a lot of people here in Berlin get children quite late in life, who for long years enjoyed their freedom without beeing stringed to a lifelong responsibility. It seems they like their kids. At least they make a great show out of it!
Of course, beeing already older than I’d like to admit, I find it nice being not alone when fighting the dififfculties of aging – if your children happen to live near you, find some spare time and are still in speaking terms with you, that is. There is no guarantee in anything.
And I’m the first to admit that although there are those rare, postcard-like moments of happiness rearing children, they also bind nearly all the energy, talent and time (and money!) of their parents in their most productive years.
The answer? Anybody who doesn’t want to reproduce, simply don’t do it. The world is a better place with every unwanted child less. But keep an open mind about it!
And honestly, there is always the time-honored position of (honorary) aunt and uncle. Maybe not very Hollywood – stylish. But good for some breathless hours now and than and still getting along with your own life!
When it comes to having kids it’s a damned if you do or damned if you don’t situation. If you choose not to have them you are selfish for not contributing to society and apparently not living a fulfilled life and if you have them you are egotistical and selfish for inflicting your spawn on society. It’s a lose-lose situation. So if you don’t want to have kids and find fulfillment in other ways, respect to you, man. If you have kids and are doing what you can as a parent, respect to you. I don’t have time for people who think they have a say in another person’s choices to have kids or not.
My mum, thankfully, never pestered me about kids. I decided very early on that I never wanted them, and my mum made it perfectly clear that it was me decision and she’d support it no matter what.
My dad’s mum…heh. If she were still alive, she’d be griping about me not giving her great-grandchildren. I’ve had doctors, friends, other family members, etc., do that for her though, well before I came out as trans. Funny how that business stopped as soon as I told everyone my name, gender, and pronouns.
Just had an interesting sleepover with a friend whose libido hits him likea tonne of bricks. Good news is my ace status has been confirmed and there was no harm done.
I know this has pretty much bugger all to do with the comic but I needed to get it off my chest.
That’s cool. The way I see it, the comments section here is something of a safe place to tell everyone about what stuff you’re going through with the knowledge that your thoughts will be respected.
I’m happy to hear your Ace status has been confirmed, even if it was through an event that (from my outside view) seems awkward, and I’m glad that you can tell us about it.
High five?
I think I’m one of the few lucky ones who’s parents are fine with me not ever having kids. (Even if my mother doesn’t accept the fact that I’m trans.) It didn’t come as much of a surprise to them.
Although my mom’s co-workers (and the rest of the world) all seem convinced I’ll ‘change my mind’ at one point.