Shades After 017
Has anyone seen the new movie Pride? It’s about a group of Lesbians and Gays in london who raised money for the miners during the strikes in the 1980’s. I highly recommend it- first time I’ve cried tears of joy in a long time. It’s a fine example of the fact that arguing over who needs the most help doesn’t help anyone- but helping each other out can help everyone in turn.
Precisely why I say LGBTAQ :|
Thank you for your inclusion. In my experience, more frequently then not people use the “A” to stand for allies not asexuals.
Yeah, traditionally it stands for Allies…so it needs to be LGBTAAQ
I’m not sure allies should be included in the acronym. They’re not queer, they cis het, why are they included in our community?
Why shouldn’t allies be included in our community? Sure, safe spaces and events for specific groups are good things, but I feel like leaving people who want to actively be a part of our community out of the community entirely is not the best way to deal with things. I’m not trying to make a point about who gets included in the acronym (acronyms are just difficult in general because they will almost always end up leaving someone out) so much as pointing out that the attitude of not including allies as part of the LGBTAGWTFBBQASDFwhatever community is also contributing to the people feeling excluded problem.
It’s not about excluding them, it simply makes no sense to have them as part of the acronym. There’s no point in talking about discrimination of queer people *and allies*, or of the needs of queer people *and allies*.
Allies are cool, but they’re not *us*, and that’s okay.
I’m not sure why you think that outspoken allies of queers aren’t discriminated against.
Because isn’t the point of having a community to provide support? Why can’t those of us who are cis het be a part of that? I may not experience your problems, but I can help you deal with them and fight against them, right?
Providing support isn’t the sole purpose of having a community, there’s also things like developing discourse and sharing common experiences, neither of which can be done by people outside of the experience. You and others like you are certainly welcome to help, I just personally hesitate to consider cis het allies an official stakeholder group in the community. I’d prefer to think of you as welcomed guests.
Unfortunately there are enough self proclaimed “allies” floating around who don’t actually know *how* to be allies. They talk over queer voices without hesitation and constantly fail to listen. They refuse to apologize for their mistakes. They claim to be oppressed because of their association with us, therefore taking our problem and falsely turning it into their problem.
Saying that allies are an integral part of the community and letting anyone who id’s as one feel as though they are “one of us” allows for too many people who are unhelpful, if not occasionally harmful, hanging around unchallenged. It also leads to resources meant for us being turned into resources for us *and* allies. There are literally scholarships that can be awarded to either queer people or their cis het allies. How does that make sense?
Basically, cis het allies need to earn our trust through their actions instead of an unearned self ascribed label. They also need to accept that there are times when they will not be welcomed in certain conversations and that this is okay. You can participate without being apart of the acronym. If you are truly helping, you will for the most part be included because we know we can trust you :)
I hope I’m not being too harsh here. I really appreciate genuine allies who humbly listen and don’t try to act like experts. You guys are great and can do a lot to ease our burden. The thing is that I don’t want to let false allies in (and please please please believe me when I say there are a lot of them out there :/) because they often try to run the show with no consideration for what we actually need.
I completely and entirely agree with you, M. Of course, allies are a valued resource and support structure, but in terms of being part of the community, that’s not what that A stands for. These types of communities are about shared experiences and identities, and while it’s great that allies are there for us, you’re not LGBTQIA+. Just because I support ethnic minorities and want to help remedy their marginalization, it doesn’t mean I’m anything other than a white girl.
In addition, there’s the fact that I’ve never needed a label to feel inclusion, because I just am, benefit of that whole privilege malarky. People who have been excluded for some part of themselves (race, sexuality, whatever) to the point where that’s the default do need to have it pointed out “yup, you’re in here”; when your default is being accepted, you don’t need the invite.
Also it’d be grammatically irritating, since being an ally of [insert acronym here] where the acronym specifically includes allies makes you in part an ally of yourself, which is word-poo.
Of course you can, but there’s little point on having acronyms for queer people include you, simply because you aren’t queer. Of course, queer communities can be inclusive.
Please don’t chew me out for saying this I would not be alive today if it wasn’t for all the cis het friends I have had that have given me support in my darkest hours. That being said I think the A stands for Ally movement is the self aggrandisment of cis het people who feel like they belong in the limelight for being a decent, complacent human being. The real friends that matter don’t need to feel a need to label themselves like the rest of our community does. TL/DR I am bitter because of bad past gsa experiences
a few reasons I can think of:
1. Its nice to be able to invite your friends to your safe spaces. It makes for a nicer space.
2. More can get done when you’ve got more people on board. “Divide and conquer” is what the people in power use against us. No need to make their jobs easier on them.
3. Given the stigma that many people still face from their families if nothing else, a lot of bi or trans or ace people seem like they’re cis het for a long time, maybe even to themselves, until they get past their personal denial. Letting them join the community can help them stop hating themselves. (its kind of a “not my kid” thing, only applied to the self. For some people, it can be easier to be an “ally” until they come to terms with it really being ok to be queer).
4. The mission as I see it (though this is just my opinion) is to make as much of the world as possible into a safe space, not to move to our own island. The more people who learn that its ok to be queer, the more pieces of the world are safe spaces.
5. It can be really painful for allies with a queer loved one, who feel powerless to help or do anything. And, sure, having “parents of trans daughters” support groups is great and all, but it doesn’t actually expose them to more trans people (so you don’t get the normalizing effect), or actually give them a way to help. Our friends and family are part of our community, whether we want them or not. I don’t see the value in excluding them and perpetuating a cycle of “we’re different so we can’t join hands”.
That all said, it can be valuable to have spaces that are just LGBT or just L or T or whatever. Those are important too. But, that’s why you’ve got different acronyms, I assume. To make it clear what kind of space it is.
Everything Fish just said is gold. Thank you for that. i appreciate allies, and there are spaces where they are great to have around. The LGBTQ2IA (or QUILTBAG if you prefer) acronym is not one of those spaces.
I completely agree with this. As someone who is cis het and grew up in the QUILTBAG community(my acronym of choice) I consider myself an ally and a valued member and whether some accept it or not I am a part of the community.
I’m the granddaughter of two lesbians, the daughter of a man with two moms and the sister of an openly gay teenager. I grew up with drag queens coming to Thanksgiving dinner and I spent my life completely immersed in the culture, literature and community, while being fundamentally heterosexual and cisgendered.
I am an ally, I am a part of a community just from the way I have been raised and from the collective experiences of my family and myself. Will I ever state that I completely understand what it means to be QUILTBAG? No, never. But I care passionately for my family and the QUILTBAG community at large. My community, in its own way.
Also, I think it’s important to recognize and remind people that a major point of a GRSM/MOGAI/QUILTBAG/acronym-of-your-choice-here community is to support each other. We are all each other’s allies. I am asexual, and I’m proud of that, but I’m also an ally and I’m so much more proud of that. When people talk about allies as if they can only be cisgender, dyadic, heteroromantic, heterosexual people, it makes me feel significantly more marginalized than when the ‘A’ is left out of the acronym. Being an ally is a choice, and that’s why it’s more important to me. I didn’t choose to be asexual, and I think most people don’t choose their gender and romantic/sexual orientations. But if someone subscribes to the idea of defining people by their choices and not things they have no control over, then being an ally should be the most important identity in the alphabet soup. People who are only calling themselves allies because they want the recognition are probably not true allies, anyways. We don’t cut out other letters because of people who only identify that way to feel special, do we?
Just my personal experience, but sometimes having access to the group as an “ally” is a much-appreciated stepping stone for late-blooming queers who are still overcoming their own internalized shit.
I agree with this. Not because allies aren’t valued, but because they aren’t part of the minority. I appreciate that there are cis het straight white males who want to help out the group and show solidarity, but do they really need the kind of recognition of being part of the acronym describing the oppressed group?
Johndar put it perfectly. As a cis-het female, I can help fight for equal rights and support the community politically and socially. But I haven’t experienced the hardships of being a gender and/or sexual minority because I’m NOT one. Let’s compare burdens: An LGBTQA person in my part of the world can still legally get fired or evicted based on their sexual orientation or gender identity, to say nothing of daily threats of harassment, discrimination, physical abuse, and/or family ostracizing. My “burden” is that sometimes other cis-hets think I’m weird for supporting LGBTQA equality. Gasp. The horror.
Being supportive of a marginalised group is great, but it DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN HONORARY MEMBER OF THAT GROUP. The reason that ‘ally’ is not part of lgbtqiap+ is that ‘ally’ is not a minority orientation or gender identity.
I feel like saying we have to include ‘ally’ is like me, a white person, insisting that I should be considered a part of the POC community because I oppose racism, or that I as a cis ‘ally’ ought to be considered some sort of honorary trans or nonbinary person. That’s just not how it works!
What I’ve seen is people using LGBT etc since there are way more non-binary terms to describe gender and sexuality. Ya, I get how it’s a bit of a cop-out, but if every non-binary was included, it would be really long.
I’ve been using MOGAI (Marginalised orientations, gender alignments, & intersex) or MOGII (Marginalised orientations, gender identities, & intersex) as a short, memorable, pronounceable and inclusive acronym.
I have no idea who came up with it but its inclusive without being ridiculous
Congrats. This conversation got me to put my email on a new site.
My college (community college, not high school), club for the topic switched from trying to use a long and changing acronym to the name “Q-Flag”
LGBTQAIEY kk
(Lesbian, Gay, Gender Queer, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Asexual, Ally, Agender, Intersex, EVERYONE, YAY!)
LGBTQAIEY@IHOP
Seriously, this has officially become the dumbest acronym ever. Can’t we just call ourselves the “Q” community? We can include trans as queer, yeah?
And then can we call ourselves the “Q Continuum” just to be more trekkie? Pretty pleeeease? xD
If not, maybe we’re all just QT’s.
I like Quiltbagpipe myself. Queer, undecided, intersex, lesbian, trans, bi, aseuxal, gay, pansexual, two other things and Everyone else.
^ I love this one. Quiltbagpipe! I have to remember it.
I knew about QUILTBAG, but I didn’t know about PIPE.
Could the two Ps stand for Pansexual and Poly ? I’m not sure what the I in PIPE could stand for, though, so if someone could inform us, that’d be cool~
I believe it is for intersex.
I was just gonna mention the quiltbag and with that I think you’ve absolutely made my day ¦D I love it.
*grumble actually there is an A *grumble* and 8 or so other letters you probably missed *grumble*
This is why I say queer or GSM, it covers all the bases without having to recite half the alphabet
Augh. Nothing enrages me more than back stabbing within the community. Nobody’s problems are so awful that it warrants silencing other people’s right to voice theirs. Poor Anwar, don’t listen to the mean stupid Anon, they probably have more problems because they are an asshole than because they are gay >:(
GSM doesn’t actually include Asexuals and etc, so I use GSRM. Gender, sexual, romantic minorities.
Yeah it does, asexuality is a sexual minority because it’s a sexual orientation. But it’s fine if you say GSRM.
Did you mean to say aromantic people?
Hi, I’m asexual and I don’t have a romantic orientation–I’m not aromantic, I just don’t identify with the romantic/aromantic binary and don’t consider it a valid part of my life, just as many lesbians don’t identify with the butch/femme binary. Saying I can’t be included in GSM without specifying a romantic identity excludes me, so I really don’t like GSRM. The idea that asexuals need a romantic orientation to be validated is actually a big part of the queer gatekeeping in the first place!
I cant even explain the hurt i got reading that. Oh Anwar…
Agreed. That said, I jumped for joy when I saw this at the local community college:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2l86fnzymxhddhd/2013-12-18%2014.01.08.jpg?dl=0
Yay! We’re included!
Sad thing is, even when your letter is in the shortest acronym, you’ll get people shunning you. I’ve seen bisexuals told they were just indecisive by gays and lesbians, trans folk told they didn’t belong in the community at all since trans isn’t an orientation and god forbid you’re a trans lesbian or trans gay man, because they’ll tell you you’re really just a straight person trying to weasel your way into the queer community. Doesn’t matter what group you belong to, people are still mostly shit and will look for reasons to exclude anyone with even the slightest differences.
Yep. You see it in other minority groups too. The ability to discriminate against someone less well off seems to be a status symbol, or a way to ingratiate yourselves with the people in power.
“Hey, I know you thought I was weird, but, we’re not so different! See, I also hate those ”
I’m afraid it might just be human nature. But, knows that the people in power use it against us. Smaller groups that police each other are easier to manage than a single force fighting for everyone’s rights.
The queer community is like any other community, and will find any reasons to bash one another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDAw3MUmByQ
It completely blows my mind how much hate bisexuals get from gays. I get not understanding asexuality before I will get not understanding bisexuals.
The excluding anyone at all blows my mind, to be honest… except in the need for focused safe spaces to discuss individual challenges and frustrations. :)
The “party line” I’ve heard for excluding bisexuals involves a dose of prejudice (assumptions about their promiscuity, for example) and a dose of … anger at a perceived privilege gap (the feeling that bisexuals don’t “have” to fight for rights, they can just “choose” to find a hetero-normative relationship and not face the same stigma as completely homosexual individuals).
I’m not in either group, so, I really can’t speak to the reality of the privilege gap. It seems to me that if you love someone and that love isn’t acceptable from society, that it hurts badly. And, that having no group to be you in, just more groups you can “pass” in is also not a joy. But, the mere option of marriage in more places/the ability to not risk death when you travel the world/job security/etc is of huge economic value, and having the choice to “pass” even if you can never be you, is still a choice that LG doesn’t have as much as B seems to. (I say “seems” because I’m not certain that B actually has a choice in the matter either. You fall in love with who you fall in love with). Anyhow. I just don’t know either way; I can’t know.
Privilege gaps are the same reason we’re discussing we’re discussing above if cis-het individuals ought to even be WELCOME in the community. D:
(There is also a dose of history involved when I’ve heard people try to justify it, with the feeling that some people fought for rights and others didn’t, but everyone gets the rights. Its bullshit in my opinion, because most of us weren’t at stonewall, and allies have been helping us fight too).
I’m very frustrated, because its not helping anyone. If someone wants to make a safe space for their minority to discuss their challenges unique to them? Great! However, being prejudicial and generally angry towards some other group in the community at large and forcing people out? Not acceptable. Not remotely acceptable.
Oh god, so much hate for bisexuals. I really don’t get it. Honestly, sometimes it feels like many people treat it as the “LG” Community, rather then LGBTQ+ (which is the acronym I use the most, besides gsm).
Been there man, poor Anwar. :(
Personally I’m a fan of GSRM > Gender, sexuality and romantic minorities.
I get why some people don’t like it, but it seems to be the only acronym that includes a demisexual demiguy
My school’s pride centre used LGBTQ+, where the + includes pretty much whatever you want it to.
Elliot, thank you, you just brought light to my ununderstanding of “GSM” I was reading in demi forums x)
The “LGBTQ+” may be ok for some, but I understand why some people could be annoyed by just being a “+” or “etc” when some get the real acknowledgement of the masses… ^^’
Well, true, you don’t have to come out as asexual. You don’t have to come out as anything, if you don’t want to.
Over on Stack Exchange, there’s a proposal to create a Q&A website on the topic “LGBT+”. Someone asked what the plus sign meant, and this was my response:
Well, true, you don’t have to come out as asexual. You don’t have to come out as anything, if you don’t want to.
Over on Stack Exchange, there’s a proposal to create a Q&A website on the topic “LGBT+”. Someone asked what the plus sign meant, and this was my response:
The proposal, whatever it is called, is still waiting for enough followers to indicate a viable site before it’s launched.
TRiG.
Seeing Pride! on Wednesday! :D
And oh glob the freaking gall of some people trying to isolate and minimize what “Queer” means.
That Anon post – so damn true.
Man, fuck people who try to reduce the ways one can be queer. I’m not even ace and my fellow allosexuals need to stOP. XP
Admittedly, I use LGBTQ most often (mostly because that’s how my queer stuff tag started and since that’s most likely over 100+ pages on my tumblr… you can see why I really don’t want to change that anytime soon X_x), though I love the term MOGAI. I also am very tempted to adopt the aforementioned Quiltbagpipe into my lexicon because that is v creative! :3
Another user of MOGAI here, though I do also like GSRM. (Also a first-time commenter… hi? ^^;)
Have you tried either XKit’s tag replacer extension or tags.goose.im ? Either will let you take one or more Tumblr tags that are already on your blog and replace them with another or others: so, for example, you could retroactively change “LGBTQ” to “MOGAI” on your blog, so that the 100+ pages you mentioned could be changed. It might not get all instances of the tag on the first pass, so you’d have to do it a few times, but it’s a great help for when you want to change a tag you made in the past ^^
I remember when there was no B or T, either. Doesn’t mean that was a good thing.
Asexual Awareness Week is coming up soon! October 26th-November 1st! Looking forward to it!
…ok, there are MANY words I want to use on that anon that I really, REALLY shouldn’t, so I won’t. I will say this, though.
To Anonymous (of the comic) and anyone who spews this kind of nastiness:
I hope that every time your power goes out or your light bulb dies or you’re fumbling for the bathroom in the dark, you step on a lego. Or ten. Or twenty. Because you are a horrible, nasty, sorry excuse for a person and you need to have a massive procedure done to remove your head from your ass.
Sincerely,
Gin
>_< I hate this nonsense when it comes to BDSM too — the idea that if you're not specifically doing bondage, discipline, master/slave, or sado-masochism, you're not really doing BDSM.
I sincerely wish a day would come where there isn't a need to "come out" in the first place – that we can all be accepted as human beings, without gender and sexuality being necessary defining points. That said, I sadly accept that there will always be a sub-group who cannot overcome their fear, their hate, their bias, their worldview, long enough to accept others freely.
That’s why I like QUILTBAG. It seems more inclusive on a few levels. For starters, it’s got the “A” in it. :P
Another reason is, for me, visual imagery. In my brain, a quilt bag is composed of all different kinds of fabrics that make up the whole (as in, the non-heteronormative community). Each piece supports and is supported by the ones around it, in order to create a strong, cohesive whole.
I like the imagery of that, add to it that quilts are usually made of used fabric that would otherwise be used for rags and it’s especially poignant.
Ooh. I hadn’t even thought about that part. That does make it even more so.
I know that feel, Anwar. Been told that demisexuality isn’t real and that I’m just appropriating queer struggle… despite the fact that it’s on the ace spectrum and I HAVE dated my own gender? So I’m queer either way?
People are assholes.
+1 People are assholes.
There’s no ‘J’ for Jackass either, and yet somehow this anon exists.
Comic anon, not me anon…you get the idea.
It always just takes one anon with a shitty comment, no? >:( I feel Anwar’s pain so much right now, except I mainly feel anger rather than sadness.
Also, just to chip in about the gender/sexuality minorities (GSM) thing: finding an acronym that works, yet doesn’t exclude anything, is nigh impossible as there are just as many different ways to describe people as there are, well, people. The only criteria I know of to be part of a gender/sexual minority is to be either not cis, not straight or not conforming to the cultural definition of sex and gender. It’s unfortunate that LGBT is what seems to be the most established right now, as it’s not all encompassing and hard to redefine, but don’t forget that words sometimes mean things that aren’t linguistically the first thing you’d think of when you read them. (Just think of how “Nightmare” doesn’t mean “noctural female horse”.)
Also, as rad as having allies is, I don’t think they should be included in the label for gender/sexuality minorities, but they SHOULD be included in as many events and organisations as possible. A lot of people that aren’t part of the label (by choice or not) want to help out and improve everyone’s lives in general, so segregating them from the actual minorities will only lead to a lack of understanding, which will damage the relationship between these two groups. And even if an ally makes mistakes, they are still trying. But we can’t say they are part of the GSM umbrella, since being an ally is not a gender, sexual orientation or culturally established sex. They are part of the community, just not of the terms used to define it. (I’m not sure if I’m getting across my point well at this point – it’s rather late at night.)
Tl;dr: words are imperfect tools used to communicate between imperfect people and things get messy easily.
Just expanding on this, I’m a fan of GSRM, for Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities. A bit more inclusive!
Allies are an interesting subject. In my opinion, they should be invited and embraced in the community. I know many allies that are amazing and vitally important leaders in my community. But I think it’s important to recognize that while they’re welcome, and certainly a part of the community, that doesn’t mean they have experienced the discrimination that the vast majority of the queer community has experienced.
In my opinion, ‘allies’ are very welcome and should be included.
For as long as they don’t make stupid ‘asexuals don’t need to come out’ or ‘asexuals aren’t even a real orientation’ or ‘asexuals have it so easy’ remarks.
Whoever makes one of those, you’re out of the LGBTQA ABCs forever. Not as a group, just YOU personally. :D
Bah! Ignore anonymous trolls too cowardly to put even a use-name to their comments! It’s like the infants in jr. high that slid unsigned notes in your locker, if someone can’t say it to your face then nothing they have to say has the slightest meaning or consequence. The only thing to come from assholes is shit.
Even if “anonymous” put a user-name to their comments, their venom should be ignored. Unfortunately, when it hits an already open wound, it is very hard to ignore.
Lol, are you seriously implying that posting using an username is brave or something? This isn’t Facebook, you can change your username whenever you want. A username or Anonymous, they are exactly the same.
Yep.
Pride was a beautiful film <3
SCREAMS OF PURE RAGE I HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAY SHIT LIKE ‘OH YOU DON’T NEED TO COME OUT AS ASEXUAL’ THAT’S LIKE SAYING YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE GAY JUST HAVE TO GET A SEX CHANGE IGNORING THE ISSUE AS IT IS DOESN’T FIX IT, IT JUST DESTROYS YOU ON THE INSIDE. I DO NOT EVER HAVE ANY INTENTION OF COMING OUT TO MY VIOLENTLY HOMOPHOBIC FATHER BUT I AM OUT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE INCLUDING MY AUNT AND MOTHER AND IT DOESN’T CHANGE MUCH BUT IT MAKES YOU FEEL A LOT BETTA
In the Alliance club I was president of, we called our community LGBTQIA (LGBT Questioning, Intersex, Asexual) though that was the shorter version of LGBT2Q2IA2 (LGB Transgender, Transsexual, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, and Allies). Though we usually just refer to our community as Alphabet Soup.
I’ve been using MOGAI (Marginalised orientations, gender alignments, & intersex) or MOGII (Marginalised orientations, gender identities, & intersex) as a short, memorable, pronounceable and inclusive acronym.
I have no idea who came up with it but its inclusive without being ridiculous
What a horrendous example of what internet comments can be like (in the strip, folks, not here. You guys are awesome).
I don’t want to believe it, having never been on the receiving end of such negativity myself, but I know it happens. It does. I know. And it makes me sad. So sad.
I’ve been using the acronym GSM: gender and sexuality minorities. It’s a lot shorter and more inclusive, I think. I didn’t know what asexuality was as a sexuality until college, but even then, it’s sucks to experience exclusion at the hands of members of your own communities.
Poor Anwar.
I don’t know in what universe guilting other people about their problems to the effect of “stop whining/bitching, other people have it WAY harder than you’ has ever metted something positive. I’ve had it done to me and it’s made me feel anywhere from rage to suicidal, and it’s never done anything to make me go “you know, you’re right, I have it WAY better than the starving children in Africa, clearly my personal problems and trans-related problems mean jack and shit! That’s solved ALL my angst and now I will go on to be a productive heteronormative member of society!”
Maybe it only serves to make the heckler feel better about the shitty situation they’re in themselves, which in itself is sad.
And even when they do include “A”, Some Allies and even other members of the LGTBQIAP+ community try to claim it For Allies rather than Asexuals. This is why I prefer using MOGII (Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identities, and Intersex) a lot more than anything else. Not only does it include EVERYONE Who isn’t Heterosexual and Cisgendered, is short, sweet, and doesn’t have an A for allies to elbow themselves into, and it can’t be used as a weapon to claim any marginalized group that they don’t belong by Excluding them from the initialism.
This page: my response to reading ace “discourse”
Basically why i don’t tell anyone i’m ace…Thankfully my partner is as understanding as Chris (so in love with those sweethearts)
And we’re still arguing over this. ):
Watched a v. interesting video on youtube about how lack of reading of queer history keeps us trotting out the same arguments over and over, particularly made worse by the un-archival nature of the most popular social media sites