Shades Of A 012
I’m off to GEEK this weekend but will be back in time for livestream Monday. See you then!
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A collection of Queer LGBT* Comics by Tab Kimpton
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SUPER CUUUUUTE!!!
These guys are great together, love them!
Also, Anwar’s face in the last panel is the BEST
I agree with both those posts. (also my first comment at Discord, I think)
That is one hell of a troll face.
hehe, a person in “the scene” im loving this comic
and I agree Chriss and *checks* Anwar are cuuuuute together already with their banter :D
glad font wars are over now Tab, and glad you’re writing this comic, stops my khaos withdrawal ;)
Woo :)
D’awww, these two are adorable, I love them already.
Oh gawd, his smirk in the last panel. He is such a brat.
Well, you can tell these two are gonna be best buds. X3
That was adorable!
Have fun at GEEK!
This day was on my list of the most depressing days ever. But then I saw this page. Thanks for the best cure I could imagine (and I tried eating strawberries, without a result) :D Anwar becomes my new (after Tom) favourite webcomic character.
IT’S CALLED ASKING. xD
Damn right it is.
I just always hear Chris’ lines in the voice of Dr. Girlfriend from Venture Bros.
okay, i don’t want to come off as offensive or ignorant here, just looking for some education… what exactly does it mean to be “they?” to have no gender at all? i remember reading an article about a child that was raised gender neutral by their parents, but i’m still interested in more information
That’s more or less what it means, to my knowledge. I have a friend who is gender neutral, goes by a gender neutral version of their birth name, and prefers the pronoun “they” to “he” or “she”. English doesn’t have a gender neutral pronoun like a lot of other languages do, so “they” is the best substitute. I’m not honestly sure if there’s a formal term for the gender identity, so someone else can enlighten you on that one!
Genderqueer? That’s pretty much a catch-all for people who don’t fit neatly into the binary (male/female) system. I think.
(I don’t need any “formal term for the gender identity” – I don’t have a gender identity. I actually just realised that, it really sums up my gender issues – or rather, other people’s issues and my irritation – very well. :))
I know one person who describes themself as “agender” (most of the time), and “female” (some of the time, but rarely). And for some people gender just isn’t a big deal, so they stick with whatever’s assigned to them. Zinnia Jones had a blog post recently about how different people assign different levels of importance to gender: what’s a minor by-the-way to some people is centrally important to other people’s perception of themselves.
TRiG.
My agendered roommate is o.k. with “he” (his bio-sex). It’s really not a big deal to him, so I guess everyone is different.
“biological sex” is a shitty, transphobic social construct. the proper term would be /assigned sex./
It’s not transphobic. It’s fact. If biological sex didnt exist neither would dysphoria, nor transsexual people.
I agree with Silas that this term is transphobic.
Are people who are under the trans* umbrella non-biological? what are they made of? rainbows perhaps?
Using “biological sex” implies that any identified sex that is divers of it is not natural.
While I agree the term is a bit misused, please refrain from making over-sweeping, generalized, almost attacking statements.
If someone uses a term and you immediately go “That term sucks and it’s *insert attacking phrase here*” people are going to go on the defensive because you are pretty much telling them that how they choose to use a term is wrong and that they’re wrong for doing it.
Especially if you use such hostile terms.
And while you have every right to dislike how they use the term, they also have every right to not get attacked if they use it.
And no, you don’t have to attack someone directly to be attacked. I have been around quite enough people who point out how bad a term is when other people use it without understanding and watched people unintentionally get bullied in to using “proper terms” that it kind of makes me sick to watch the community literally jump on every single person the instant they use a word.
If you want to point out how a word needs to be changed, please do it politely. We can get people to change through proper education, not through shaming people’s choice in words.
Come on.
The whole gender/sex thing is one of the few things we, as a fractured community, can mostly somewhat have an inkling of a chance to sometimes agree on.
Gender for the social part, gender identity for the actual identification (the two being somewhat interchangeable, but still a bit defined), sex for the-shit-your-chromosomes-won’t-shut-up-about. Yes, it’s not binary, but talking about what one’s actual, biological sex is, is hardly transphobic. You may not agree that the definitions should be, or indeed are, like this, but do not throw around accusations of bigotry idly, please.
Yes, I’m transgendered. No, I don’t believe that what my chromosomes seem to indicate is particularly relevant in most situations. But it is an actual thing, and it does play a part, from a purely medical point of view, if nothing else, so even though it is, like with most things, possible to use the term and the concept for bigotry, it pretty damn surely isn’t inherently that way.
I’ve never been attacked over that before. Considering it’s what he says about his own identity, I know when I’m not welcome somewhere.
I have to agree, but I don’t want to attack anyone, merely inform how their words come across and seem to be ill-informed.
The gender that a person is given at birth and which their “original” bodily configuration support is not their “biological” gender. My gender as a female is as much biological as any cis-woman’s.
The term usually used for this is “assigned sex/ assigned gender”, especially because such assignment is done without understanding the newborn’s gender identity, nor with confirmation from chromosomes, brain differences, or any other non-sexual differences that are typically found between different gender identities.
This also has a severe impact on intersex individuals (who I would love to be covered at some point in this comic -wink wink, nudge nudge), as they also have issues between their assigned sex (which typically, in the modern day, deals with surgery shortly after birth) and their identity.
I think there was a good discussion on this terminology over at Khaos- I highly recommend you read this on why certain terms are offensive or “triggering” and what the generally accepted terms are.
And… link: http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/trans-101-guide-looking-for-comments-and-edits-ready-for-the-tom-alex-book
That’s one possibility, but it’s not the only possibility. I suggest you read this FAQ.
As it has already been stated “they” is sometimes used as a gender neutral term, but there are other options. Personally, I hate the usage of “they” as a gender neutral term, because it sounds like someone with MPD and it also kind of comes off as alienating to me.
Personally, I like “confusing” (perhaps challenging is a better word) people. If one person calls me “he” and the next “she” I’m fine with that. It reveals a lot about expectations and perception.
Ha! Good one XD
Gotta love the last panel!
Is anyone here able to raise an eyebrow and smile at the same time?
Scary enough, yes I can.
And, oh, just love the faces – Chris’ in the second-to-last panel and Anwar’s in the last. So expressive.
I can- though I can only lift my right eyebrow for some reason…and when I do that I look so smug
“It had a ‘no t-shirts and jeans’ rule so I went in all black” – With blue trousers :)
Am I the only one who thought that the friend was supposed to be a man instead of a woman? I was surprised.
Do you mean JD? JD is neither a man nor a woman. That is why JD prefers the gender neutral term “they”. I am not surprised because it was stated early on that JD preferred to be referred at “they” if that is what you mean. Chris happened to have misgendered them due to Chris’ own ignorance (he doesn’t know JD after all) and possibly because JD was Female Assigned At Birth (FAAB), or has a high voice (because somehow high = feminine in our society, which isn’t always the case). That, however, does not mean JD is a woman, which is why Anwar corrected Chris’ pronoun use.
No, I also thought JD was male at first (even knowing that there would be a genderqueer character in the story; Anwar’s first use of “they” totally slipped by me). But I think it’s more because all the JDs I’ve ever met were guys, so I didn’t question it. Great character design, though. If I were standing in front of two doors and couldn’t tell which one was the girls’ washroom, and then JD walked out, that would offer zero clue.
That shit-eating grin in the bottom panel is the best :].
Love this page.
As an asexual who’s still ‘in the closet’ I have a feeling that I’ll become obsessed with this comic. Thank you so much for all your work!
We missed you today Tab.
But we had some nice talks non the less :D
no tab today. :|
did something happen?
I’m glad for this comic, especially for JD. That is something I always am afraid I’ll get wrong and offend somebody with [and judging by some of the comments above it’s a legit fear] my lack of complete understanding. I have a feeling this will help explain it better than most internet articles can.
On a side note, am I the only one who totally wants that club to be near me? Seriously, there is not a single one of those close by. Depressing.
I absolutely love Anwar’s face at the end. XD It looks like those two are going to become good friends. I’m beginning to really like these characters. :)
As for all the people who were talking about gender-neutral pronouns, here’s a good website to look at: http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/
It has ones in our language and ones that people have invented and are used by many LGBT people and supporters.
For the record, asking for pronouns is actually usually a terrible, terrible idea. Even if somebody appears androgynous or whatever, asking their pronouns is very rude. Many men and women who are not LGBT in any way appear androgynous and it could offend or hurt them if you ask for pronouns, as it can be seen as implying you think they are not [male/female] when they are not doing anything to appear [female/male] and they thought their gender was obvious. This also applies to people who are more masculine or feminine. Really, outside of LGBT spaces, just don’t do it.
Excellent response. I personally prefer the verbosity of Japanese for this reason, in most situations it’s implicit who you’re talking about, and when it isn’t you refer to them by name. It seems like a worth while road to take if you’re not sure, but you know their name.
Right, because heaven forbid we hurt anyone not appearing to be in the LGBT so we don’t accidentally misgender.
Insinuating that assuming someone is transgender is an insult is itself insulting to those of us who are trans*.
It should not be rude to ask what pronouns to use, and if someone is insulted by making it open and ensuring that we be as inclusive as possible, then they aren’t the kind of person I want to be around.
Do I typically assume gender? Yes. But I always make sure to ask just incase because you -can’t- assume a person who appears to be cisgender is.
Zinnia Jones had a whole article on this, on how asking is the best policy, even in day-to-day life.
I /am/ trans. I am a trans man. I hate being asked my pronouns because it makes it very obvious I do not pass, and it puts my emotional and physical safety at risk. Also, the insult doesn’t lie in insinuating somebody is trans. The insult lies in insinuating they are the gender they are not simply because you do not think they look like their gender well enough. I am not insulted by inclusivity; I am insulted when the attempt to be inclusive is counterproductive.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard someone saying that they are against someone politely asking what pronoun to use. Obviously this would be have to be done discreetly.
The reason why I ask when I don’t know is so that I can call whomever by whatever they prefer, instead of just guessing and then them having to correct me.
Exactly, it is better to ask and know than assume. The question is not about passing- especially because not all trans people pass all the time (I sure dont), and it is better to know- especially when dealing with those who are genderqueer- than to assume based on presentation or appearance. Even when in guy mode, I would rather be asked and assure that I am a woman than have people assume based on expression- especially since I am a tomboy and do not always fit gender norms in terms of expression.
Should I start asking every person I see? I mean, that person who has short hair, baggy pants, no breasts, no hips, is speaking in a deep tone, is named Jim, has a chest length beard, he might actually want me to referto him using female pronouns. There’s no way I can know otherwise. Or are you suggesting only when it is “questionable”? I think it’s far more awkward to ask OR use the wrong pronoun that avoiding gendering remarks at all; it’s not impossible. For the record, I’m trans and would rather be misgendered and simply correct someone than someone asking. At least in that scenario I can sass them for their mistake than having to be embarrassed they couldn’t tell. Then again, I’ve never had someone misgender me.
So the girl’s gender identity is invalid unless they look female to you? Their gender identity is only valid if they pass? They must meet -your- standard of gender presentation before their identity is “correct”?
Overall, the only solution to prevent this is to ask. Personally, I use the pronouns of how they present- and then offer “I assume you identify as male/female?” alongside it. Especially when dealing with people in the scene or in areas -like Seattle, my home- where the LGBT population is evident.
I have very rarely ran into a person, cis or trans, who has an issue with asking- because it avoids the possibility of triggering someone who suffers from gender dysphoria. If I really don’t want to ask, I see how other people refer to them and reflect that- it is possible to learn indirectly, even though that too is unreliable. Is it awkward sometimes? Yes. Can you not use gender specific comments? Yes. But the only way to know someone’s gender identity- as is mentioned in this comic, is to ask.
And please realize that not all trans* folks pass, or are gender-conforming in their lives, or -don’t- trigger when misgendered. Even as a trans* person yourself, you can’t assume that everyone’s experience is the same. What you can do is learn to avoid causing issues and approaching in such a way that is minimal but prevents the real emotional trauma that triggering due to misgendering causes others, and learn to not assume someone’s gender identity from their presentation or your own expectations.
Also, just to paint a picture- I have fairly short hair, done in an androgynous hairdo. I wear baggy jeans on occasion when I am either lazy at work or doing housework. I have no breasts or hips because -guess what- I’m not on hormones yet due to medical issues. I get stubble that sometimes won’t go away after lazer because it’s not on the surface, but deeper in where, unless I make my whole face bleed, my razor won’t get ’em.
I sometimes need to use my legal name- say, at the doctor’s, or any place I need to handle legal issues or any time I may be carded because I haven’t had my name legally changed. And voice training has me to a good pitch, but it took me months to work it up, because I started from a low bass and even now, some people misgender me by voice on the phone.
And in the end, I’m pretty damn tomboyish- I wear t-shirts and jeans with my boots fairly often. I can shoot a gun and I work on cars. I rarely paint my nails or wear much makeup because day-to-day, that stuff gets messed up in minutes and I don’t want to put in the effort. I have ridden the line of butch- and also been on the opposite end towards hyper-femme, too.
And none of this discounts my identity as a woman- and I deserve to be referred to as such. To call me a man has, in my more emotional states, triggered me to break down randomly- has led me to being considered unstable by my family who already lacked support, and were about to check me into a mental institution after I came out and faced more criticism that led me into suicidal depression.
Now I know my story is my own and no one else’s. But before you assume that person’s gender presentation is not important, before you assume that misgendering them is “no big deal”, that they should handle it the way you do, take a step back and realize that not all trans* folks are like you. Not all have the privilege of passing. Not all have the same attitude you do of being able to shrug off being misgendered. And while we would love to assume the best, that ignores the real truth of the matter.
I am so proud of Tab for writing this and being able to handle many of these topics, to hopefully open the eyes of even those in the LGBT and kink communities to others’ realities, to raise awareness- especially of those who are even more invisible to most- those who are asexual, agender, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc. Because even those of us in the “community” tend to make assumptions about others that we need to be aware of.
-A proud demisexual, transwoman (S)switch
Unfortunately, this very quickly becomes a no-win situation – where asking is bad and not asking is bad, because there will ALWAYS be someone who will be offended or emotionally damaged by whichever choice is made.
However, there is no reason to be upset when a person asks, if it is done discreetly and politely. To be offended otherwise makes no sense, anymore than it makes sense to get angry at a person who is unaware of racial difference to ask rather than assume your race based on stereotypical observations. Now, if it is done in a crowded place loudly, with bad intentions, I understand that is different. But most folks who care to ask are like me- wanting to be inclusive and not misgender someone who is genderqueer, more fluid in their presentation, or otherwise unable to solidly determine gender- and even a solid determination can be wrong.
First time reading this comic, long time reader of Khaos. Loving this so far! I like the protagonist a lot, and that you have a genderqueer character in the story.
I was a long time reader of Khas comics, while I love this comic I must admit that I am already missing reading about the Khaos characters ^^; You are an amazing one at getting people to feel for your characters which makes them that much harder to leave behind.
I’m a little curious on one point.
Most gender pronouns only come up when talking about someone or their possession to OTHER people. We don’t address someone directly and say “How are her?” or “Are these his boots?” Chris wouldn’t have used “she” when speaking directly to JD, as opposed to Anwar’s original use of “ma’am” (which isn’t a pronoun) in a questioning manner.
At what point in meeting or getting to know someone does asking to determine correct pronoun usage even become needed?
For example, I see someone regularly on the bus who could be either gender or none. We don’t talk or interact. That’s one extreme and someone I simply use neutral pronouns and words for – someone, they, person, individual – rather than assume either way. If we actually spoke, I can’t think of any reason I would need to ask because I don’t discuss them with other people (until this anonymous mention).
On the other hand, someone related to me is gender-fluid. Pronouns never really come up as an issue for her because they are external — whether she’s male, female, or other at any moment in time, someone else saying him or her won’t alter her identity. In her case, the pronoun question was never asked because she volunteered the information.
I’m thinking every situation must be judged on its own, but the burden shouldn’t be entirely on the person who will be using the pronouns to ask. In some cases a friend making introductions could slip the pronouns in (“This is JD. They’ve been my friend since school.” “This is Charlie. She’s new in town.”) or discreetly pull aside anyone they hear using the wrong pronouns to politely advise them. In other cases, it might need to be up to the individual to make a point of it when introducing themselves if it would bother them to be referred to by the wrong pronoun.
Sorry that turned into a bit of a ramble.
You make it seem like one never speaks directly to an individual using gender-specific words or pronouns, but actually, they are used quite a bit. It can be such as “you go girl!”, “now, boys…”, “hello, ladies”, and many other. In places with employees who assist you, such as in stores/restaurants, they may very well say “ma’am”, “sir”, “miss”, etc. Also, even if the person in question is around, there’s bound to be situations where they are talked to in third person. It could be “who’s your friend? he/she seems nice”, “where did he/she go?”, “do you know where he/she got *insert whatever*? could i ask him/her?”, and so on and so forth. Of course, it’s more common when you at first meet someone. Not everyone is über-social, and they may end up talking to you when wanting to get to know your friend/associate. Pronouns!
You say that it should be up to the person in question/their friend(s) to say the pronouns. While this of course is all right, and persons may very well be corrected by them/their friend(s), it could be wise to ask if you’re not sure, instead of blatantly assuming.
Also; when a person just newly has begun being “out” as whatever they identify as, they’re probably insecure, and it’s a stab to them when someone says the wrong pronouns. The other person probably has no idea that they’ve hurt your friend, and if the friend is alone, there’s always the possibility of hate crime, etc. so they may not feel like correcting the other(s).
And, concerning your gender-fluid friend; Really, it’s reasonable to assume that someone who changes what they identify as/don’t care what people perceive them as, don’t care as much about pronouns. And as I said; not everyone are very self-confident. They may be too shy to burst out with what gender they wish to be called. And let’s imagine a transsexual who is either ftm or mtf; their birth-pronouns and -name are probably some of the things they hate the most to be called. They wish to be perceived as the opposite of what they were born as, and being called the opposite may feel both hurtful and invalidating of their “chosen” (in lack of a better word) gender.
Of course; there are exceptions. I don’t speak for the trans*-community. I speak as an observer who has waaaay too much time on his hands to read/watch videos about these things. But these are things I believe to be true; you may feel free to disagree with me.
(Go watch some videos on youtube; search misgendered, pronouns, transmen/transwomen, etc. etc.. Ryan Cassata has a video concerning misgendering, and many other also do.)
…oh, look! I rambled too!
This, almost exactly. Misgendering often causes mental anguish, especially when one is questioning, but even afterwards as well. I still cringe every time I am misgendered- because its treating me like my identity is invalid.
I would rather a person ask than misgender me- though I am fortunate enough to pass most days, I am also aware of the privilege I have from that.
just a note- language here is tough… I was born a girl, always have been gender wise. It is not chosen- it is a part of me. I just have a different genital configuration and was assigned male at birth. In general, this is the most accurate way to describe how trans* folks often feel, though of course, mileage varies and I speak for myself and those I know, not everyone.
I was at a munch (kinky social gathering) on Monday. When we started doing introductions, someone asked if we could do preferred pronouns as well. Definitely a good idea. In a group of 15, we had a trans woman, a trans man, one genderqueer person who preferred ‘her,’ and two of us who preferred ‘they.’ Really, the one thing that surprised me in this strip is that Chris hadn’t encountered someone who’s a ‘they’ before… but then, my local scene may be queerer than most.
With regards to asking… yeah, personally, I do try to avoid it. It’s basically asking “Hey, what gender are you?”and while some of us are delighted when people admit they can’t categorize us, trans folk are generally less so. . It’s a step up from making an assumption and getting it wrong, but still, if you can get it right without asking, that’s definitely preferable.
When possible, I’d go by gender presentation — as Chris has already demonstrated, even if they’re a man in a dress, they’re not going to be offended by having to correct that assumption. Granted, this is harder if you’re trying to figure out if someone is a butch woman, genderqueer, or a pre-T trans man. Asking someone who knows them would be my first choice; asking them directly is a distant second.
That said, ‘ask about pronouns’ is a kind of the prevalent view in the kink community right now, and also it makes a great punchline here, so I’m not critiquing this strip. Just saying, proceed with caution in real life. Of course, in the kink scene it’s super easy: just get their Fetlife handle and look them up. ;)
This discussion has gone around, but assuming even on presentation, you know how the saying goes.
That also leaves out trans people who don’t present in whatever way trans people of their gender are supposed to present–I’m a trans woman who gets mistaken for a boy a lot because I don’t present super-femme and don’t often pass, and I’d much rather people just asked.
That was how I was until I started laser and dyed my hair. I still have my moments where I feel like I am going to be misgendered because I’m still such a tomboy. I too would rather people ask than just assume from presentation. I don’t feel like I -have- to be femme all the time just for them, you know?